After officially opening our church in the park in 2006, we began to get requests from people who were interested in getting married, and are looking not only for him to perform the service, but also for premarital counseling. BabyMan and I had obtained our certifications in Christian Counseling a few years ago, so we spend a good deal of time in sessions with those who have come to us for help in a myriad of circumstances.
Recently we have had sessions with couples who are constantly arguing and demonstrating a general disrespect and animosity toward each other in public. People who have had difficult lives have had to build a wall of defense in order to protect themselves even from those they profess to love. We get that. We also understand that without a willingness to put this behavior behind them, their marriage will be fraught with emotional manipulation, deceit and resentment from which they may never recover.
But how do we counsel a couple who is challenged with the same constant bickering that we were plagued with before we incorporated domestic discipline in our lives. How do we explain to them the impact that domestic discipline, properly implemented, can have in making a difference not just in one's marriage but in other aspects of their lives?
How do we explain the politically incorrect concept of a male-led household when all their lives they've dreamt of the 50-50 marriage and equal partnership? It would be great to be able to express that a head of household learns through DD to be a champion, a protector, a man of integrity and credibility. That a woman turns her home into his sanctuary, his soft place to land through respect, obedience and graciousness. How is it explained that this is not violence, but a loving means to grow closer in the marriage relationship by resolving issues expediently and correcting damaging behavior that can destroy intimacy?
For those of our congregants who are exhibiting certain qualities (integrity, credibility and maturity) BabyMan and I are troubled that our hands are tied. We are convinced that we hold the answer to the challenges that a few of our couples suffer from, and we can't give it to them! It's almost like holding the keys to the kingdom of God through the Gospel, and not releasing it for fear that they'll think we're crazy. To explain the precepts of domestic discipline to one of our congregants, only to have him possibly misunderstand his responsibility and take it to violent level, would put us in a state of liability. Imagine a man being arrested for mercilessly beating his wife and when asked why replies, "My pastor told me to."
For now we have resigned to using our experience in ballroom dancing to approach the idea of the male-led household. The guidance of the man through his steps and his hands, and her willingness to follow is a testament to a couple's ability to work through the pitfalls of marriage. And as we teach the Foxtrot and the Waltz, we teach leadership and obedience through mutual respect.
But I wonder... have any of you ever suggested ttwd to someone you know who would appreciate and benefit from it? When your friends ask why you and your spouse get along so well, do you let them in on your secret or do you pass up the opportunity and watched your friend's marriage drown before your eyes without throwing them a life jacket?
SugarAnne,
ReplyDeleteThis is something, I think, that most of us who do TTWD struggle with. I know Wil and I do. It's like having the secret to happiness yet not being able to share it. But like BabyMan was talking about in his last blog how would you explain to anyone how this works?
What would you say? "If you spank your wife everything will get better." and when asked why or how this works you answer "Uh, I don't know why or how, just do it, it works." How crazy would that sound to people who don't understand TTWD. Especially when a lot of us who do have DD relationships struggle with understanding why it works.
Our son and his wife would definitely benefit from TTWD. Their marriage is one power struggle after another. We would love to be able to help them and let them in our our little "secret" but we both know that they would never understand.
I am sure for BabyMan and yourself it is even harder for you. You both know what the answer to a lot of marital problems are and you watch people you care about struggling yet you cannot help them.
Imagine how many marriages could be saved if we could all scream from our rooftops the praises of TTWD. I don't know what the answer to this is, I wish I did. I think there may be some people I would be willing to tell if they ever asked. However most of the couples I know would NEVER understand.
Just know that we all understand your struggle and it is one that I honestly believe we all are faced with at times.
Again another great and thought provoking post.
Thanks,
Janet
Oh, Janet, so very well said! Many of those who seek counsel from us have expressed their interest because they have NEVER seen BabyMan and me snipe or pick at each other (I've earned spankings for many reasons, but never for the way I've treated him in public). They wonder why we tend to serve, speak softly, and express gratitude to each other. When these questions are asked, we can usually come up with a reasonable homily on respect and courtesy, but feel a bit guilty that we're holding back. I only wish someone would have let us in on the "big secret" ten years ago when we were mapping out our own power struggles. I'm sure someone we knew had the answer, but feared the possible backlash of letting it out as we are now.
ReplyDeleteThank God for the internet, huh? I hope your son and daughter-in-law stumble onto it when they need it most.
SugarAnne
I've wondered before what kind of reaction I would get if someone who knew about TTWD. I am not brave enough to share that kind of info but I know what you mean about not wanting to hold back so much, especially when you feel so strongly about it's positive impact on your marriage.
ReplyDeleteAlly, I hear ya. And it's not only wanting to share the joy, but it's doing it without looking like complete lunatics. As a woman, I'll be looked upon as a pathetic doormat with no self esteem. BabyMan will be seen as an abusive SOB who should be reported and jailed for my own protection. Don't think of yourself as not being brave enough to share... think of yourself as wise enough to keep your mouth shut. ;)
ReplyDeleteSugarAnne,
ReplyDeleteI have been enthralled with the book that I am reading called Love and Respect by Emerson Eggerichs. It seems to outline a domestic discipline way of being married, without ever saying the word. It is biblically based and the man even has a blog, with input from his family. If you have a Barnes and Noble near you, you can browse through the book. I found that the reviews that are on line did not do the book justice at all. I think that the book may be a guide for a more vanilla world too. After all, I do not believe that it is absolutely necessary for a couple to use spanking in order to have a dd relationship. The book never mentions spanking at all. There are couples in dd who are successful that don't ever spank. (Sure isn't much of that in my house,lol)
Hope this helps.
Hugs,
Elysia
Elysia, you're a God send. I just read the first 4 chapters of this book online, and it will definately be a huge help in explaining the importance of the male-led household. It's still an idea that will be met with a certain amount of indignation with the people we serve, but Eggerich's book certainly spells out what we'd like to convey with the least amount of objection. Thanks for the heads-up.
ReplyDeleteSugarAnne
SugarAnne, I have given this a good bit of thought, both as a friend parent, and as a therapist. As friend and parent, as tempting as it would be to speak up, I realize that so many people would not be ready, would not be willing to do what it takes, are not into spanking at all. I was in my late 40's when we started. In my 20's and 30's there is no way I would have been ready or able. I remember suggesting something as mild as The Surrendered Wife to a friend who was complaining about marital issues. She responded, "I am ready to work on the marriage but I am sure not ready to surrender to him!"
ReplyDeleteNow with couples coming for marriage counseling they might be ready to do the work, but as you mentioned, your liability would be HUGE. I just don't personally think Dd is something you can recommend. I love the dancing analogy, I think The Surrendered Wife is a wonderful book and I am sure there are Christian equivalents...but suggest he spank her? You know you can't, and yes, what a shame!
I think that the ballroom dancing is a perfect 'cover'. I also think that the sense of maturity and responsibility for many of us do come so late in comparison to the changes young married couples experience. A sense of self confidence comes before maturity. That is tough to have without a mature parent nurturing it in their children. And as far as a sales pitch, dancing sounds more pleasing than spanking (well at least to others! for me... its almost a toss up ;) Bless you both for being on the front lines while (hopefully) I safely make my differences from the burbs. Respectfully, KayLynn
ReplyDeleteHi There,
ReplyDeleteSorry I am so late responding. I tried to post from my Palm with no luck. It turned into a long comment so if I fail in being succint it may be a two-fer, here goes :)
I am not sure I agree with the idea that DD marriages are unequal. In the words of the late, great Teddy Pendergrass, I feel they are "a 50/50 love" arrangement. In DD two people have reached a specific agreement as too how they will manage their relationship and the terms and conditions of their relationship. Each partner has different roles and different responsibilities, yes. One, ultimately is accountable to another, one responsible for the other. This is not inherently indicative of 60/40 or 70/30 even. If we take that position, we are indicating that the only thing of importance within the relationship is our autonomy and independence from each other. I don't share that view.
I think that in relationships, particularly traditional relationships in the modern age we must focus significant energy on valuing each other within the relationship. If we do not, we risk falling into cliche and automatic roles which can leave either partner feeling unappreciated and disrespected. This, ofcourse can lead to the failure of the relationship and the rejection of the ideal when in reality it was the idea of taking emotional shortcuts and engaging with a fantasy not a person that doomed it to fail.
I think one thing you mentioned highlights a key issue couples fight. Being courteous and considerate of each other. I often work in an environment where those who approach the company representatives expect the worst. Thus they are often short, curt and combative without even giving the staff the opportunity to prove themselves.
I see this often in relationships. We approach each other as combatants. We are primed to see fault and slights even where none exist. We are not polite, cordial or courteous. We are careless with each others feelings. I wonder, if you think that simply encouraging basic kindness would be a place to start? Even if it means some sort of marriage 'charm school' as a component of pre-marital counseling. Maybe married couples 'rules of engagement'. What do you think? You are complimented on being courteous and thoughtful, other than getting people to actually love each other (with engaged couples, let's just assume they do), is it possible to develop a blue-print for niceness?
That being said. I am not sure I would encourage suggesting others try TTWD, especially not in a counseling setting. Let me explain. My closest friends in r/l know about DD and that side of me. Since all of them are Christian women and were quite comfortable with the idea of being a submissive wife if not the reality of being a submissive wife -- they do not have a problem with that part of the equation. I think they mostly see it as a kink and just accept it without too much fuss. However, when I meet and date a new man the first thing they want to know is if he is 'like' me or if he is 'regular'. I know they struggle with the idea of coming to terms with the thought of some man 'hitting' me. It is something they can put on their mental backburners for the time being and basically express the position that it is my decision. However, I know when the time comes and I have a serious relationship that seems to approach permanent, this will be an issue that will have to be parsed gently.
These are my friends, imagine if you will, what the response would be from strangers or people I know but who have not developed the kind of relationship with me that allows them to respect my choice no matter how far out of the norm it may be?
To be continued,,,,
Part two,,,what can I say, lots of pent-up thoughts arose from your post,,,here goes,,
ReplyDeleteI attend what we like to call 'The Greatest Church in the World'. Our Pastor and First Lady are very open about their relationship. Actually, that is how I began attending the church, I visited with my ex to attend a marriage workshop they were hosting. I grew up evangelical and have always accepted the idea of being a submissive wife. My challenge continues to be the unwillingness of the men I've met to accept the responsibility that accompanies being the HOH but I digress :).
I am not sure how I would feel if I knew Pastor spanked First Lady. I know, call me a hypocrite, they've been together since they were pre-teens and now, after all these years the idea that he disciplines her would be disturbing. Now if they were just kinky, the marriage bed is undefiled afterall that is one thing, but not sure about the other. And honestly, in our church, the nuances of ttwd would never be accepted. Too many women have been faced with abusive relationships. Our church does not advocate divorce, however, what our Pastor does say is to remove yourself and your children to a safe place. We will address the repair of the relationship once we have ensured the safety of all parties. It would be too much to ask our membership to understand and accept ttwd.
You have to consider the impact this type of revelation will have on your ministry. I fear it would be devastating. Where I live we don't have this cute little euphemism 'spanking'. We have 'whippings', 'beatings', 'wearing-outs', 'hide-tannings' and 'thrashings'. No one will hear 'punishment' and think you have agreed to this - they will assume this is step one on the way to your husband asking them to relocate to the jungle before drinking the koolaid. The nuance; I don't care how mature you think they are, how ready to take that next step, the nuance of ttwd will be lost. The only thing that will be remembered is the 'Pastor hits First Lady'.
If you have ever perused some of the CDD sites one recurring theme is the idea that women do not have the right to say no to CDD. That once the agreement is made to enter into a CDD relationship it cannot be revoked. That goes against everything I believe, and I think you believe DD to be. Ultimately, we may be at a loss as to what to do with our relationships should one partner or the other reject DD but we know that we both reserve that right. I cannot imagine being in a relationship with a gentleman who believes he has a biblically endorsed right to punish me.
I have known situations of beaten women whose husbands indicated they beat them because her disobedience. The wife would not submit.
If people are too immature to understand the idea of biblical marriage and common courtesy I am completely unconvinced they will be able to absorb the complexities of ttwd. The responsibility of being a DD wife, a DD husband, the selflessness, the need to prioritize another, be aware of another and actually live in the moment. I am not sure it is there.
I understand the desire to share our new found relationship miracle cure. Afterall, what are we if not witnesses :) but I don't think this is something you should share in your professional life. Just my thoughts,,,
Sorry the comment became so long, be well,
CD
While I was reading this post one thought came to mind....To bad there isn't some kind of camp or workshop however you want to call; but a couples camp that helps couple with that kind of things that all couples go through also introduce D.D. to their life style. That way they can get the right info and learn how its with love and not hate. Teach the men to led and the women to follow but also learn to keep things equal. But thats a big dream. LOL.
ReplyDeleteLynn Lane.
-cultivateddiscipline
ReplyDeleteI guess I am just having a hard time coming to grips with the balance of becoming a HoH and not feeling tyrannical. I do value my wife's opinion and I want her to feel heard and respected, but how can that happen if we always use my decisions. Or maybe I can answer my own question by asking another - is it because as HoH I am coming from a place of love and if I truly believe her input is better it will be used and she understand that and trusts in my ability to balance the two?